Sunday, April 27, 2008

Debates with Liberals! Yay!

Just read it. People like this both confuse me, and amuse me. They are'nt consistent, nor are they really logical. Non sequiturs and red herrings abound. What does social justice have to do with liturgy?! Bringing up the blight of the poor is not a valid counterargument to those who hold liturgy to be important. Nor is bringing up the fact that "Jesus and the apostles didn't do X, so it's not important!" Our lord did'nt teach liberalism, self-contradictory heresy, nor did he use guitars, women priests or altar servers. If I bring that up, How do you think they will respond? Exactly. On with the debate:
He begins, saying:

"Who are you people - - do you have nothing else to worry about. Having worked with international virus control I can't believe you are suggesting that Catholics go back to that abhorrent practice of having someone touching my tongue and then going to the next person - - the spread of germs through saliva is RIDICULOUS. Where have you been - - As a student in South Africa in the 1974 we were already receiving communion in the hand. Get a life folks - - figure out how the church can help the poor and get away from your computers and start working in the church as ministers - - servants of the word of God.

A young student brought your site to my attention - and I am glad she did. I strongly believe in freedom of speech - Your site is a wonderful example of the abuse a blog can cause. If anything thank you for this excellent example of the total chaos a blog can cause.

Please, in the name of the young people of the Catholic church - - stop worrying about laws and rules and start living an attitude of Christ to welcome all.

As a frequent speaker on ritual symbol I will now have something to rally against - YOU! May my voice rise others to take action against you and all you promote!!!"

I responded saying:

Yes, we are asserting that the Roman church goes back to what the Roman church does, because it conveys what the Roman church teaches. People have different opinion than you do.
Big Wow.
If showing reverence to what we believe to be the most sacred body and blood of Christ is abhorrent to you, then why are you Catholic? Also, what correlation does Liturgy have to do with social justice? When God told the Israelites to used the finest golds and woods, and the best craftsmanship for vessels and vestments, and when he dictated the intricate temple ceremonies, Would you have criticized him? Would you have told him he was wrong? Would you have railed against St. Francis of Assisi, or St. Vincent de Paul when they wrote about reverence in the mass?

Second, I disagree with your implication that liturgy does not con vey the word, of God, when the church disagrees, she teaches that the mass is the source and summit of our faith, . Should it not be celebrated with the utmost reverence?

Thirdly, I am a young student (Actually, still in high school) I wonder how you can logically say "I support free speech. This is what happens when you have free speech! Stop using your rights!" Again, there are actually lots of people who disagree with you. Big Wow.

In the name of the young people of the Catholic church, please,please understand that many of us DO like reverent liturgy. Lifeteen gets old and tired the fifth time around, and we desire something better. Something that transcends our reality, something that transcends you and I. The Hole Sacrifice of the Mass is it, and I want it to be celebrated in a manner that shows that it's not about my here and now, about my culture, and about what I like.
The Christ welcome to all never said "Do whatever feels right!!!1one!" No, he gave us rules. Bets of all, he gave us his bride, the church, who now gives us rules whch I am happy to follow in obediance.
There's Rules.Deal with it like a man.

Not only the church's teachings, but her also liturgy forms my conscience. Thus, I have even more to rally against when I speak of liturgy-People who deny the sacrality of the mass, who want to bring God down to earth. People who acre about giving God what he deserves, and not what we like, or want.
Lets' stop focusing on our voices, our opinions, our likes. The focus of our lives should be promotion of Christ, and liturgy is part of this. If you want to waste your life railing against what the church says about liturgy, go on."

He Responded, saying:

" Josiah:
Thank you for your thoughts. Once again you sound frustrated at what is fact. Roman Catholics do not need gold vessels or silken robes to praise God - those are man made rules and thoughts. The Spirit of the gospel was one of welcoming and learning how reach out to others in the culture of the people. Look at the wonderful writings found in the Acts of the Apostles. Nowhere do I see any comments about receiving communion in the hand or tongue - or golden vessels and silken robes - no - instead this week's readings I have read how the apostles went from city to city preaching good news of love and acceptance - we hear of a church of love not of clericalism - or fear - or unworthiness. In dialogues with Jewish scholars at some of the greatest American Universities we have heard that - yes even they (the scholars) do admit that Jesus was a man of peace and justice.

Ah, but I digress. Simply look at the Emmaus story - the recognizing of Christ in the BREAKING of the bread - -no - things did not stop and get all rule oriented and suddenly Jesus stops things and - -dudes - - ya gotta receive the bread on your tongue from my special fingers - - NO!!!!! Discuss that with the youth of America. They recognize Christ in the breaking of the bread and the act of SHARING! to go out into the world and SHARE.

I am Catholic because I am baptized and the God of my culture loves me and asks for my praise and my commitment to share Christ with all I meet. The God, The Christ, The spirit who says to all of us - - go out into the world.

So - - Josiah - thank you - thank you for your thoughts - but please - as a young person DO NOT GETY HUNG UP ON RULES - go live, enjoy your life, discover what is in the world that you can love and see how you can make a difference to change the world to do better things for all humankind - don't go looking for "groups" - Lifeteen or Opus Dei - instead find Christ in the breaking of the bread with the homeless in our streets - find Christ in the large group of gay teens who are forced to live on the streets because their parents are so hung yup on rules that they cannot see the "gift" their child is - - Go Josiah - GO - - as was simply said in the movie - "Run Forrest Run" - because in the running you will find that with love, simplicity and praise to God - you and others will find freedom.

As a frequent speaker I am asked to be a member of a Catholic congregations throughout the world and and all I know is that I recognize Christ present in the assembly when they sing OUT LOUD, when they pray OUT LOUND, when they sit in silence (not with some God forsaken Latin chant singing) - and in the receiving of communion - the body AND the blood as we were called to do in the actions of the last supper.

Beware of false leaders that speak otherwise - that blog their anger as the TRUE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH - if you want to receive communion in the had - fine - but DO NOT TELL ME or any of your friends that they are wrong! Instead help them live out the joy of being a Catholic - of celebrating life and making a difference.

Thank you for your response and I will use this as the opening of my lectures this year. You have opened my eyes and I now I need to speak to others of how our church has damaged our youth.

Peace dude"

He also said later, for no particular reason:

"Again - -this is getting ridiculous - I am NOT a hippie - I have given my life to working with the Catholic church and the development of Liturgy in the US. I would like to know where your statistics come from when speaking of the decline in priesthood. Perhaps the arcane way we welcome men (unfortunately only men and I will respect JPII's request to not discuss the inclusion of women) - that if someone was born with homosexual tendencies- he may not enter the seminary - God forbid he was a heterosexual - if a man chooses to be celibate does it matter if he is gay or straight!!!!?????!!!!

Unfortunately I am painfully aware that much time is spent in parishes worrying about rules and songs to be sung instead of meeting the pastoral needs of the community with which we minister. Having ministered in the tribal communities of Swaziland and Lesotho let me tell you - - the luxury of "cleansing" the hands of the presider with water had no meaning for those who were dying - - yes dying from lack of drinking water. How does the rule fit in there. Many of your voices take up too much space on the internet and so - those of us who believe in the VOICE OF THE PEOPLE shall and will do anything we can to stop the proliferation of teachings that denigrate the beauty of our faith and the real mission of peace and justice. Get ready and pray to God for the right "Gregorian Chant" to stop that!!

Let's see how successful you really are as a majority of Catholics go RUNNING from your churches in search of a piety and spirituality that speaks to their needs and the needs of the community for which the live. Oscar Romero was killed for preaching liberation - - so we need to raise our voices in that - - LIBERATION from not only anti-catholics but right wing anarchist lie many of you spouting rules and laws who continue to destroy the work OF THE PEOPLE . The work done in parish life and LITURGY done in the past 30 years in the name of Jesus Christ and in the name of Social justice and Change. Take a closer look folks - YOUR TIME IN THE SPOTLIGHT is about to be over -- Sing what chant when when your communities of Latin Masses are half full and the Singing assembly of the Catholic Church down the street from you is full - - someone will take notice and find God in the midst of those who are full, active and conscious participators of the liturgy."

I responded, Saying:

Freedom emptied our seminaries.
Freedom decreased the faith of the laity.
Freedom led to countless daily sacreliges.
Freedom led to people like me being basically run out of the parish,Because I did'nt like guitars, or liberal theology.
Freedom got me kicked out of RCIA because I knew that the teacher was teaching heresy, and I told her.
Freedom killed the church, yet you think freedom will fix it. It doesn't logically follow.

I want brave priests, who'll stand up and proclaim the magisterium of the church, who follow the rules and submit them selves to authority. That's what I want. I find Jesus in the blessed sacrament, that where I go. That's where my refuge is, and the refuge of all the faithful. True, Jesus is in the poor, But I don't put the poor in a monstrance and adore them. I don't kneel down and receive a gracious giftt from them.

Man-centered theology, and man- centered liturgy led to the collapse of the church as we see it today, and yet some people call for it to continue. You cannot repeat the same process and expect to get a different result. Liberal theology, liturgical abuses,and railing against the church will NOT bring anyone to Jesus. It won't give us vocations, and will not strengthen the church, since that's how we got here in the first place.

Second, your own speech betrays that you do not understand the mass. The church still teaches that the mass is a holy Sacrifice. She still teaches that the priest acts in the person of Christ, to bring about the miracle of the Eucharist.

WE were not called to do the actions of the last supper. The apostles, the first priests were. I don't break the bread, I don't share my story. I'm fine sitting in the pews, meditating on the mystery (silent active participation, as JPII called it)
I like this. What I don't like, and what I tire of is the "Peace,Love and Justice/freedom/feelgood/No rules" Gospel. It's outdated. It's Dying- no, it's Dead. We've moved past the 70's already. Sentire Cum Ecclesia- and right now, this is how the church is thinking. Tradition=In. Liberalism =out.
You've seen the surveys. The church will recover, but only if we teach what holy mother church teaches, and do as she has always done. Your speech betrays your liberalism. You call for the voice of the people, but when we, the voices of the young laity want what you abhor, then we must be silenced. We all know that the Latin masses are bringing in all the young people. We all know that traditional orders with Latin masses are flourishing, while liberal orders are consolidating. It's obvious what the people, what the young want. So why must we be denied it?

I shall critique the whole a bit later, after dinner.
But serious me cap off. Real me Cap on.
Dude, you're a total hippie. You're definitely a liberal. Telling me what young people like? Way to talk down to me genius. But what do you expect? Without trying to poison the well, That's how liberals are. Self contradictory, and when it comes down to it, they're narrow minded pricks.* He speaks about how our traditional communities are dying.
I'd like to know where they are! The liberals have effectively suppressed traditional liturgy and spirituality for the past 30 years. In the name of diversity, equality, and acceptance, we were conformed to their ideas by force, treated as third-class citizens and outcasts, and given no representation. Notice also, how much he refers to "His culture", and how he feels? Liturgy should be Christ-centered, and it doesn't mean we have to sng everything, and do everything, That emptied out pews.
He criticizes us for having rules that "Destroy the work of the people." What the Heck!? I AM the Frickin' people! I'm a high-school age lay Catholic, and a minority to boot. He says we're destroying the works of the people, but what was his ilk doing when they stole our chant, our Latin, our beauty and the mystery of the mass from us in exchange for an empty ideal? They now prevent us from having it, "In the name of the people." How's that for a self-contradiction?

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